Curse

glacialphoenix · Aug 05, 2008, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You don't need to spend more than three seconds on introspection to discover the answer: the HoM.

Yeah. This.

The moment things like Legendary Guardian and Legendary Vanquisher and all those HM-inclusive titles came out and were included in the HoM, people started wanting them. Of course, HM being HM, players who weren't good enough started complaining - and then Ursan came out.

I remember that last year, during Dragon Festival, there was a bugged mission. Lots and lots of people weren't so much complaining about the bug as the difficulty. "I can't do this!" "This is so hard!" SJ was literally swamped by people complaining about the difficulty, and there were others pointedly telling them to forget about HM if they found the Dragon Festival missions hard.

This year's? "R10 Ursan group GLF HB". Waaaaaaaaaaaaay fewer complaints. That's pretty much what happened all over GW, really. Instead of finding a new way to do it, people just sat there and moaned until someone gave them a gamebreaking method to get all the titles that they couldn't get.

upier · Aug 05, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The difference is, humans get to play with intelligence and skill (discluding ursan), AI doesn't. AI is weak with normal skills, and weak with very strong skills. Humans are capable of being excellent with normal skills. The monsters need it overpowered skills, because the AI is shit.

If the player has 600 hp - a skill dealing 400+ damage in one shot has no place in the game.
Despite the lacking AI or Prot Spirit.

Otherwise you decided you don't care the slightest about balance - in which case ... there's nothing wrong with Ursan.

Courage! · Aug 05, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

NO Ursan and it will be great

Shikaru · Aug 05, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

I remember that last year, during Dragon Festival, there was a bugged mission. Lots and lots of people weren't so much complaining about the bug as the difficulty. "I can't do this!" "This is so hard!" SJ was literally swamped by people complaining about the difficulty, and there were others pointedly telling them to forget about HM if they found the Dragon Festival missions hard.

Part of me wishes that all of PvE was like this. Back in the day THK was a good filter for all of the bad players so when you got to Ring of Fire, you at least know most people know what they were doing (this is in terms of standards during that time period and not today's standards).

If players cannot overcome something as simple as festival quests, they don't belong in the end game areas. If the reward is substantial enough, the whiners will eventually stop whining and find a way to overcome the difficulty. The only problem I have with the difficulty scaling now is that it's fairly boring. Buff dmg, buff HP, buff speed. So now it just takes longer but its still the same predictable mobs.

Back on topic:

1) The immunities idea is a good idea so that teams are forced to be well rounded instead of having mass fire eles or mass ursans.

2) Another thing I noticed is that rarely any areas have decent hex pressure. The wind riders are the only groups I can think of off the top of my head that provide decent hex pressure. Even still, you can power through it,as with other mobs that use hexes, with HB heal party.

Mobs need to use better hexes in conjunction with each other. IMO put more mobs with degen hexes, scourge healing, wail of doom, vocal minority, spiteful spirit, backfire, diversion, shame etc etc. And make the mobs cast enough hexes such that they have to be removed instead of just being healed through with HB heal party.

(lol a full group of wind riders with diversion and a ward of stability would be funny vs ursan groups)

Dr Strangelove · Aug 05, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the player has 600 hp - a skill dealing 400+ damage in one shot has no place in the game.
Despite the lacking AI or Prot Spirit.

Otherwise you decided you don't care the slightest about balance - in which case ... there's nothing wrong with Ursan.

That's some awfully twisted reasoning.

In logical order:

1) Arenanet wants to make hard mode challenging
2) Anet has two options for this - a) give monsters better AI, dynamic skillbars, and continually update them to keep each mob up to date, or b) make big numbers
3) Being lazy, Anet decides it's easier to just double all the numbers and sneak out early for a few drinks.
4) Players complain that instagibbing bosses are stupid.
5) Anet, hungover after last night's bender, opts to give players equally overpowered skills to counter broken bosses.

Hard mode bosses and crap like ursan are equally broken and result from the same root cause. However, screwing up skills doesn't do anything to fix the stupid way in which hard mode was implemented. Breaking something else does nothing to fix the root problem.

Also, imbalanced crap going against imbalanced crap does not suddenly become perfectly fine. Both are still broken in their own way. A while back I played a ritspike build in HA vs. 6 shadow prison sins (back before the nerfs to both). The match rapidly degenerated into who could headbutt their keyboard the fastest. Even though both builds were on relatively equal footing, it remained horribly imbalanced, player skill was no longer important in any way.

In a perfect world, they'd roll back Ursan along with all the other stupidly made PvE skills (I'm looking at you, SY!). They'd then continue on to rework monster AI and skillbars, and we'd all dance and skip merrily into the distance. In reality, there will likely be a token nerf to Ursan that ignores the root of the problem, and nothing will really change. At this point, our best hope is that GW2 PvE turns out better than the current clusterfark. There's always a chance they could learn from their mistakes.

I am a living god at rambling given the slightest provocation.

Hyper.nl · Aug 05, 2008, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Release Guild Wars 2, and with it allow a much further character development.

upier · Aug 05, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

That's some awfully twisted reasoning.

In logical order:

1) Arenanet wants to make hard mode challenging
2) Anet has two options for this - a) give monsters better AI, dynamic skillbars, and continually update them to keep each mob up to date, or b) make big numbers
3) Being lazy, Anet decides it's easier to just double all the numbers and sneak out early for a few drinks.
4) Players complain that instagibbing bosses are stupid.
5) Anet, hungover after last night's bender, opts to give players equally overpowered skills to counter broken bosses.

Hard mode bosses and crap like ursan are equally broken and result from the same root cause. However, screwing up skills doesn't do anything to fix the stupid way in which hard mode was implemented. Breaking something else does nothing to fix the root problem.

Also, imbalanced crap going against imbalanced crap does not suddenly become perfectly fine. Both are still broken in their own way. A while back I played a ritspike build in HA vs. 6 shadow prison sins (back before the nerfs to both). The match rapidly degenerated into who could headbutt their keyboard the fastest. Even though both builds were on relatively equal footing, it remained horribly imbalanced, player skill was no longer important in any way.

In a perfect world, they'd roll back Ursan along with all the other stupidly made PvE skills (I'm looking at you, SY!). They'd then continue on to rework monster AI and skillbars, and we'd all dance and skip merrily into the distance. In reality, there will likely be a token nerf to Ursan that ignores the root of the problem, and nothing will really change. At this point, our best hope is that GW2 PvE turns out better than the current clusterfark. There's always a chance they could learn from their mistakes.

Yeah, couldn't agree more.

gremlin · Aug 05, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparks Dawnbringer

Everyone is so upset about Ursan. Well, Don"t use it. No one is out there saying you have to use it. But for the people who can't find Pugs for their characters why can't they use it. Everyone complained about the ranger build in the Tombs too. You are for the most part able to play the game in any manner that pleases you. Why worry about what someone else does. And no I don't use Urasn. If any thing I would like to see it opened up more so you didn't have to pug and could use heros as much as you like any where you liked.

What you say is essentially true but still Ursan is the latest in a series of problems to hit GW pve.

PVE is more fun played with people.
First no one knew anything and everyone had fun playing any class and any build they wanted.
Ok there where monumental failures in some cases but mostly we muddled through and with every party different the fights were different, less predictable.

Then websites started publishing builds.
The first build elitism started and you couldn't get in many parties without a certain build, this made the game less fun, you always use the same party skills the mobs respond in the same way, sure you kill them in 8.3 seconds instead of 23.9 seconds but its very boring.
Then came ursan where in some areas only ursan prevails so less choice less variation and more predictability.

Now given that we are told by the "experts" that pve is so easy you can play though all the missions using henchmen while only using 3 skills on your bar with the monitor turned off, why does this elitism still exist.

Odinius · Aug 05, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Add assaults to outposts which you can accept in town.
When you exit the town waves and waves of gradually harder foes storm towards the town.
Kinda like "Assault on Beknur Harbor" and "Defence of the Eye"
Boring but can't think of anything else atm.

glacialphoenix · Aug 05, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikaru

2) Another thing I noticed is that rarely any areas have decent hex pressure. The wind riders are the only groups I can think of off the top of my head that provide decent hex pressure. Even still, you can power through it,as with other mobs that use hexes, with HB heal party.

Mobs need to use better hexes in conjunction with each other. IMO put more mobs with degen hexes, scourge healing, wail of doom, vocal minority, spiteful spirit, backfire, diversion, shame etc etc. And make the mobs cast enough hexes such that they have to be removed instead of just being healed through with HB heal party.

(lol a full group of wind riders with diversion and a ward of stability would be funny vs ursan groups)

This. I can simply monk through anything else except Wind Riders, who have a fairly nasty compound of hexes - including, if I remember correctly, Shame and Migraine. Migraine's pretty nasty towards HB, because of the sheer reliance on Heal Party, but hey, Migraine's nasty to, well, everything. It's an elite, after all.

Scourge Vaettirs are pretty nasty towards HB monks, too, but there isn't much else that would actually have to make people think. If there's anything resembling hex pressure, it's probably from sheer overload of monsters - which usually arises from bad pulling or unlucky spawns.

FoxBat · Aug 05, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Basically they can start by hammering SY, Ursan, Minions, and then see where things stand. There's a fair number of almost-as-good options for damage really, but its the built-in passive defenses of the above that makes them 100x better than everything else, and lets you sleep through HM.

Tender Wolf · Aug 05, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparks Dawnbringer

Everyone is so upset about Ursan. Well, Don"t use it. No one is out there saying you have to use it. But for the people who can't find Pugs for their characters why can't they use it. Everyone complained about the ranger build in the Tombs too. You are for the most part able to play the game in any manner that pleases you. Why worry about what someone else does. And no I don't use Urasn. If any thing I would like to see it opened up more so you didn't have to pug and could use heros as much as you like any where you liked.

I completely agree. I've found heroes and henchies to be more reliable than PUG's. And yes, if you don't want to use Ursan then don't, that doesn't mean the people who prefer to use it (especially if they can't get a PUG) shouldn't be allowed to.

In answer to the question, personally I wouldn't change anything in PVE. I think it's fine the way it is. It's challenging enough, and hard mode is even more so. So I don't think anything needs to be changed.

RavagerOfDreams · Aug 05, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I would make it so you had to fight other players.....

o wait

Shikaru · Aug 06, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

This. I can simply monk through anything else except Wind Riders, who have a fairly nasty compound of hexes - including, if I remember correctly, Shame and Migraine. Migraine's pretty nasty towards HB, because of the sheer reliance on Heal Party, but hey, Migraine's nasty to, well, everything. It's an elite, after all.

Scourge Vaettirs are pretty nasty towards HB monks, too, but there isn't much else that would actually have to make people think. If there's anything resembling hex pressure, it's probably from sheer overload of monsters - which usually arises from bad pulling or unlucky spawns.

The idea is to create hex overload in a normal mob group and not just when you get unlucky pops or double agro. If wind Riders were combined with Soul Bind spammers, it would make a very challenging mob.

Red Sonya · Aug 06, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Courage!

NO Ursan and it will be great

Wrong, because once they nerf Ursans you will have a bigger whine/QQ base than you do now complaining about Ursans being overpowered. The whine/QQ will be louder and they will have to reverse or change it again to be more overpowering, then the lesser whine/QQers will be back because Ursans is overpowered and lol the circle and cycle will continue on an on an on an on forever.

Arkantos · Aug 06, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the player has 600 hp - a skill dealing 400+ damage in one shot has no place in the game.
Despite the lacking AI or Prot Spirit.

Otherwise you decided you don't care the slightest about balance - in which case ... there's nothing wrong with Ursan.

When the AI is bad, the only way to create a challenge is by the monsters having very strong skills. A boss with a 400 damage skill is fine - as you said, humans are capable of using protective spirit.

There's a difference between complete idiot monsters having super strong skills and humans capable of thinking and planning having super strong builds. Humans are capable of being very powerful with normal skills, monsters are not.

upier · Aug 06, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

When the AI is bad, the only way to create a challenge is by the monsters having very strong skills. A boss with a 400 damage skill is fine - as you said, humans are capable of using protective spirit.

There's a difference between complete idiot monsters having super strong skills and humans capable of thinking and planning having super strong builds. Humans are capable of being very powerful with normal skills, monsters are not.

How about if I am running a hench monk with PS?
Does that mean that 400 damage skills are still fine?
Just because something can be countered - doesn't mean it's good for the game.
(Plus it's not like actually made the game better for the better players. The only thing that this does it that it takes down players that do not rely on a gimmick. This type of a game doesn't reward good plays - it punishes the bad.)

As Dr. said - the problem is on both sides.
If you choose to go with a selective balance though - then I don't have a problem with selecting the balance which causes for the player to ALWAYS come on top. The monsters won't complain.

kostolomac · Aug 06, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

When the AI is bad, the only way to create a challenge is by the monsters having very strong skills. A boss with a 400 damage skill is fine - as you said, humans are capable of using protective spirit.

That wouldn't make the game challenging for me , maybe you , this is because we have different views of what challenging is. Making the game harder by just increasing the numbers will never make it challenging in my opinion.

Avarre · Aug 06, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

The difference is a 400 damage skill as the weapon of an enemy can be hard-countered into nothing by means of another skill. You can be completely terrible at the game but still know how to press the prot spirit button, and that negates the 'challenge'.

A setup of skills that work can't, in theory, be hard-countered so simply and thus take a little bit more player ability to deal with.

Dark-NighT · Aug 06, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Wrong, because once they nerf Ursans you will have a bigger whine/QQ base than you do now complaining about Ursans being overpowered. The whine/QQ will be louder and they will have to reverse or change it again to be more overpowering, then the lesser whine/QQers will be back because Ursans is overpowered and lol the circle and cycle will continue on an on an on an on forever.

Like i give a damn about whiners, ursan is BAD not because its overpowered or whatever but just for the simple fact that its counter productive to new builds, no one is being creative anymore and that stinks. I blame ursan for that and that would be the only reason to get rid of it.

People just get lazy, only use one skill and think they are leet, knowing ursan its impossibly repetetive and boring, but ok if people can keep doing that without damaging their brains, then by all means go do it.

Nerf the hell out of it and have people try new builds, new ways of killing stuff and actually think about how to kill certain bosses or whatever. just remove the element in the game thats appears to make everyone a dumber player.